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October, 1997: CReyn10284 posted a request, with the subject header "Teacher of Black Magick needed." which launched a decent discussion. Hopefully this extract will provide the information shared and the atmosphere of that discussion.

The discussion in alt.magic started with a simple request:
From: creyn10284@aol.com (CReyn10284)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Teacher of Black Magick needed.
Date: 5 Oct 1997 06:42:59 GMT
Message-ID: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Responses: balaam@aol.com (Balaam)
scarlet1co@aol.com (Scarlet1co)

I need someone to teach me the sacred art of black Magcik. Anyone interested E-mail me at creyn10284@aol.com

It then dribbled on with a few short and unimportant posts,

From: balaam@aol.com (Balaam)
Date: 5 Oct 1997 13:56:13 GMT
Message-ID: <19971005135600.JAA04423@ladder02.news.aol.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Responses: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>

You could start by "learning" that Magick is colorless.

Balaam

From: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:13:09 -0500
Message-ID: <61eikq$3cl$4@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005135600.JAA04423@ladder02.news.aol.com>


Balaam wrote in message <19971005135600.JAA04423@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

>You could start by "learning" that Magick is colorless.

Not necessarily. The philosophies of which it's broken down into applies color to it, though that is dogma. However, dogma is often as good as fact...

Ahhhhh... I'll stop there. No use in writing ten pages about that.

message courtesy of...
** The Dragon **
 

From: scarlet1co@aol.com (Scarlet1co)
Date: 5 Oct 1997 18:27:48 GMT
Message-ID: <19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Responses: R+C <precognition@hotmail.com>
"Shane C. Hage" <shage@email.msn.com>


if you find one, contact me too

scarlet1c0@aol.com

That caught some peoples' interest...

From: R+C <precognition@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 03:38:37 -0500
Message-ID: <3438A38D.6142@hotmail.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>


Scarlet1co wrote:
>
> if you find one, contact me too
>
> scarlet1c0@aol.com

Why would you wish to practice "Black" magick if you already profess to be a White Magickian?

Frater T.A.K.
R+C

From: "Shane C. Hage" <shage@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:03:24 -0400
Message-ID: <OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Responses: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)
Xenome <xenome@earthling.net>
Balanone <balfaq@xeper.org>
Chris Stead <cm_stead@pacbell.net>


Unbelievable...Scarlet1c0...you said in a previous post that you have been devoted to the White Arts for most of your life...why now do you seek to destroy yourself? There is nothing that black magick can do that White can not also do. The method of achieving the goal is different though. White magick breeds harmony, love, and balance to the universe. Black magick causes discord, negative emotions, and chaos.

As a WHITE practitioner with over 10 years experience, I recommend you reconsider your choice. Both of you(Creyn10284/Scarlet1co) Do you want to end up killing someone for your own gain? What if it was your child? Would you kill your child if it meant gaining the power of accurate prophecy or physical flight? Ask yourself...what am I really after? I don't recommend you do it yet, each person has decisions to make. All that I recommend is that you post your answers as to WHY you want to pursue black magick so that myself and others have to opportunity to give our opinions. Of course, I expect this may cause a flame war against me, but, if it protects at least one of you, it would be worth it.

God keep you and protect you from doing harm to yourself and others.

That message piqued people's interest, and while Shane was wrong about the flames, he did get one response, which led to others:

From: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)
Date: 6 Oct 1997 17:21:14 GMT
Message-ID: <61b6ma$eh9$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Responses: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>


on Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:03:24 -0400, Shane C. Hage (shage@email.msn.com) wrote:

> Unbelievable...Scarlet1c0...you said in a previous post that you have been devoted to the White Arts for most of your life...why now do you seek to destroy yourself? There is nothing that black magick can do that White can not also do.

Real magic is without "color." It has no taint of either evil or good. Magic is the application of little understood natural forces to acheive a goal.

> The method of achieving the goal is different though.

Really?

> White magick breeds

hypocracy, guilt, impotence...

> harmony, love, and balance to the universe.

Oh... is that that you call it. Right.

> Black magick causes discord, negative emotions, and chaos. As a WHITE practitioner with over 10 years experience, I recommend you reconsider your choice.

Not a little predjudiced, are we. One might think that the racism has moved into the magical community from the terms flying about. Isn't that Eurocentric color-based value system a little tired?

> Both of you(Creyn10284/Scarlet1co) Do you want to end up killing someone for your own gain? What if it was your child? Would you kill your child if it meant gaining the power of accurate prophecy or physical flight?

Who said anything about the killing of children? That is purely a fear and a guilt tactic. Really, if you must be so self-righteous, at least try to mask it. It is so disheartening to see someone botching a manipulation attempt. If you would like lessons....

I have never caused a death after many years of magical practice. I have cursed those who have crossed me, blessed those who deserved it, and politely ignored everyone who kindly did the same for me. If I had brought about the death of an enemy, it would only be because it had been deserved. Magic doesn't permit you to make those kinds of mistakes. If your subject doesn't deserve the action you take against them, it won't work. Period. Consider how many deaths have been brought about by ignorance and fear. Perhaps it is the "black magician" who should exhort you to learn tolerance and respect of anothers path, rather than spouting proPAGANda about that which you do not understand.

> Ask yourself...what am I really after? I don't recommend you do it yet, each person has decisions to make. All that I recommend is that you post your answers as to WHY you want to pursue black magick so that myself and others have to opportunity to give our opinions. Of course, I expect this may cause a flame war against me, but, if it protects at least one of you, it would be worth it.

No flame war. Just my opinion. Why do I persue the magic that I practice? Because it is startlingly effective. The only time I have recieved any backlash (what "white" magicians call "karma") was when I was practicing white magic. I was so caught up in the whole guilt drama that came from even thinking about harming someone with magic that karma became a self- fulfilling prophecy. When I let go of guilt and accepted that I was merely shaping my world to fit my needs, and realized that every other individual has this same capacity... poof, no more backlash.

> God keep you and protect you from doing harm to yourself and others.

I keep myself and protect myself. I am the only god in my universe. This is not meglomania. This is realism. I am the only one with the power to create my world in the image that I would have it be in. No other person has my vision, and so no other person can possibly create for me what I need. I admit my magic is incredibly selfish. But then, if one is to be honest with oneself, this is the wisest way to be. If I help someone, it is not altruistic. It is because I enjoy their happiness. If I harm someone, it is because I will enjoy their suffering, because I know that they would enjoy mine. Do unto others as they do unto you, because, babe, let me tell ya, ain't nobody cares 'bout what you would have them do to you. They gonna do for themselves and to Hell wit' you!

Nixi

From: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:21:38 -0500
Message-ID: <61eilq$3cl$6@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
<61b6ma$eh9$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Responses: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)


Nicole M Long wrote in message <61b6ma$eh9$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...

>Not a little predjudiced, are we. One might think that the racism has

[snip]

>I have never caused a death after many years of magical practice. I have cursed those who have crossed me, blessed those who deserved it, and politely ignored everyone who kindly did the same for me. If I had brought about the death of an enemy, it would only be because it had been deserved. Magic doesn't permit you to make those kinds of mistakes.

You say that she is prejudiced, but for the sake of being the devil's advocate, I'll say the same for you. You seem to be posting a rationalization for your dabbles in magick that could have extended to the more negative side of things. It's always the ones that would be termed "black" practitioners that say the same as you. Magick is colorless... do unto others.

message courtesy of...
** The Dragon **

From: Xenome <xenome@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:47:19 -0400
Message-ID: <34392427.4FAB@CAPS.earthling.net.TO.REPLY>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Responses: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>


Shane C. Hage wrote:

> White magick breeds harmony, love, and balance to the universe. Black magick causes discord, negative emotions, and chaos. Do you want to end up killing someone for your own gain?

[snip]

Everyone has their own definitions, I guess.

White magic is essentially self-denying; i.e. all power rests with God (or the creative source, whatever - something external) Black Magic is essentially self-affirming; i.e. even if there were powerful supernatural beings, they'd be far too busy with their own business to bother with my aims - I must use my own power and genius to effect the changes and goals that I think are important and worthwhile.

It's not about harming vs. helping, as such terms are always relative.

Hes Shetau

From: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:23:48 -0500
Message-ID: <61eimd$3cl$7@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
<34392427.4FAB@CAPS.earthling.net.TO.REPLY>


Xenome wrote in message <34392427.4FAB@CAPS.earthling.net.TO.REPLY>...

>White magic is essentially self-denying; i.e. all power rests with God (or the creative source, whatever - something external) Black Magic is essentially self-affirming; i.e. even if there were

Ahhh... so now we're getting into the true discussion of the issue. It is all a matter of personal definition, is it not? Who is to judge whether your actions are black or white? Only you, depending on the situation... or perhaps you have a stern set of guidelines laid out for yourself. Cross into one of those boundaries and you have your black or white.

One man's black is another man's white, then... correct?

message courtesy of...
** The Dragon **

That's about the time I discovered the thread. I also had some things to say about Shane's comments...

From: Balanone <balfaq@xeper.org>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 11:04:03 -0700
Message-ID: <34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Responses: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
"Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com>


Shane C. Hage wrote:

> Unbelievable...Scarlet1c0...you said in a previous post that you have been devoted to the White Arts for most of your life...why now do you seek to destroy yourself? There is nothing that black magick can do that White can not also do. The method of achieving the goal is different though. White magick breeds harmony, love, and balance to the universe. Black magick causes discord, negative emotions, and chaos.

> As a WHITE practitioner with over 10 years experience, ...

Shane, as a WHITE practitioner with over 10 years experience, you know distressingly little about black magic.

As a BLACK magician for the past 20 years, let me correct a few of your errors.

Black magic does not necessarily cause discord, negative emotions, or chaos. It can, certainly, as can white magic. I have seen /more/ discord, more negativity, and more chaos come from those who loudly and proudly proclaim themselves to be white magicians than from those who call themselves black magicians.

Why? Because the white magician is often out to save the world, to *force* harmony, love, and balance to the universe, to force *their* ideas of harmony, love, and balance onto the universe. It just doesn't work.

I have nothing against the white hermit, who pursues his craft and attempts to become harmonious, loving, and balanced within, and to be harmonious with the universe, balanced with it. It's the white light meddlers who can't handle the dark side of the universe and who wage war against the dark side of the universe, or more accurately who wage war against everything they don't like about the universe and everyone they don't like in the universe who cause the problems.

There is nothing that black magic can do that white can not also do, except for the accomplishment of the primary goal of black magic. Yes, the methods are different, but obviously you don't know where they differ.

> I recommend you reconsider your choice. Both of you(Creyn10284/Scarlet1co) Do you want to end up killing someone for your own gain? What if it was your child? Would you kill your child if it meant gaining the power of accurate prophecy or physical flight? Ask yourself...what am I really after? ...

Black magic does not involve death and destruction, as you imply. Black magic recognizes the essence of magic is in life, and relishing life, black magic works to preserve and advance life. White magic works to balance life and death, worshipping the idea of balance. Black magic works to advance life over death, seeing this specific balance as one which needs to be defeated for the sake of life and the living.

Black magic involves finding and breaking the barriers to individuality and independent power that abound in today's universe. The barriers that white magicians erect to protect and maintain their world are the barriers which the black magicians tear down in order to create their world.

Black magic involves finding those things which need to be done and doing them, regardless of the moment's popular conception of whether these things are good or bad. Black magic also involves identifying those things which are not necessary, and avoiding confusion and interference with progress by avoiding being involved with those things which are not necessary.

Black magic involves looking about with clear eyes, intelligence and wisdom, and seeing what is right or wrong with the world, and what is right or wrong with the self. Black magicians work to improve and advance the self first, and to improve and advance the world when we can. We take responsibility for each and every action and for each and every inaction we take.

> I don't recommend you do it yet, each person has decisions to make. All that I recommend is that you post your answers as to WHY you want to pursue black magick so that myself and others have to opportunity to give our opinions. Of course, I expect this may cause a flame war against me, but, if it protects at least one of you, it would be worth it.

An honest analysis and description would be better than the lies you offer above.

> God keep you and protect you from doing harm to yourself and others.

You may trust and hope in your god. Instead my wish for seekers is that they find the truth, and that they themselves develop the intelligence and wisdom to use the truth for advancement of life and self without falling into the type of errors you seem to have enmeshed yourself in.

Balanone
   PP

Needless to say, my comments also brought forth responses.

From: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:35:40 -0500
Message-ID: <61eimv$3cl$8@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
<34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>
Responses: "Jeff Marshall" <magan93@flash.net>


Balanone wrote in message <34392813.df707f65@geocities.com>...

>Why? Because the white magician is often out to save the world, to *force* harmony, love, and balance to the universe, to force *their* ideas of harmony, love, and balance onto the universe. It just doesn't work.

So then, in reality, it is the black magician going under the guise of the white magician that you are referring to. For the only true white practitioner is the white hermit. However, unless my memory fails me at such a young age, the Hermit is higher than the Magician in the Hermetic Tarot.

The implications there are too awkward to consider, are they not? It is the one that studies alone that is higher than the one that practices actively.

>Black magic involves finding and breaking the barriers to individuality and independent power that abound in today's universe. The barriers that white magicians erect to protect and maintain their world are the barriers which the black magicians tear down in order to create their world.

Maybe you didn't consider your words well before you posted them, but you say "create their world" in reference to black magicians. Which leads me to believe that the world created can be as fantastic and unreal as the creator deems necessary. Whereas the white practitioner exists in a world already established, protecting and maintaining what has been laid out by them.

>Black magic involves finding those things which need to be done and doing them, regardless of the moment's popular conception of whether these things are good or bad

And, hence, black magick is an art of emotion, and not of thought. However, I would not argue that the opposite is true for the whites (and I must stress that this term is not used in racial context) of the world.

>right or wrong with the self. Black magicians work to improve and advance the self first, and to improve and advance the world when we can.

I am glad you said it before me. However, the blacks (also not used racially) are a selfish lot. Mine and take supercede ours and give.

We must ask this philosophical question--is it better to create the world we desire to live in or live in the world of desire that we create?

message courtesy of...
** The Dragon **
 

From: "Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:54:28 -0500
Message-ID: (no message id captured)
Responding to: "Balanone" <balfaq@xeper.org>
Responses: Balanone


>Nor would I call them a black magician, since what they do under the guise of white magic does not match in method nor intent what a black magician does.

Absolutely--that's often overlooked in the type of discussion that's being had. Intent is nearly everything.

>will stagnate. The true Initiate is one who balances the two activities, study and practice, and uses each to build the other.

That is probably the best description that I have seen, actually. It also makes me think. I value studying and thinking above applying. Though I feel that applying is necessary, I think that the "stuff" that is applied MUST be well considered, researched, thought-out, diagrammed, and understood. Then re-written, if need be, and reconsidered. When it comes time to apply, it is that final work of research that is put into action. If done right, that piece is research will be a work of art.

Adversely, the one who studies and never applies will lose their knack for it, is what I think you're saying. Am I right? If that's what you're saying, then yeah--I definitely agree.

>selfish SOB?). The accomplished magician (black or white) who works in this realm rebuilds the psychic and social fabric of the world with skillful intent.

But how much of that is an illusion of reality and how much is real? To the black magician, the creation of the outside world as it should be seems to take precedence over working with it. The white magician works with the community to accomplish their goals. Black magick is a solo operation, really.

>the creator deems necessary," and some of those black magicians get so wrapped up in their fantasies that they choose to live in that created world and to leave this more mundane world behind. Other black magicians

[snip]

>us -- the horrors that inhabit this world with us don't seem to appreciate the changes).

Right... and that's where black magick is at it's worst--when the magician lives in a realm so far from reality that they no longer are of reasonable existance. However, you're saying that you rebuild the world brick by brick... but you're rebulding it for yourself. For your sight. And somebody else is rebuilding it for themselves.

>counted among the few). The black magician accepts neither dictate, but weighs each individual need, each individual benefit, each individual cost, as carefully as he can, and makes his decision based on that analysis.

I don't see how the calculation of everything around you correlates to the application of what is necessary, when it's necessary, and who it is necessary for. I, actually, don't see any calculation in that other than how much it's going to cost you for ritual supplies.

>need to improve the world around them. The best and easiest way for me to gain a benefit is to work to gain this benefit for all the fellows around me.

So then it is the solo man working for the community, rather than the community for the community?

>Your philosophical question is too reflective for me. If you can explain your question clearly, I will do what I can to answer it clearly.

> is it better to create the world we desire to live in or live in the world of desire that we create?

Weigh these two--pretend that you live in the house you wish it were, or go out and rouse your family to help you fix the place up.

The first would be a more simplistic black magick application, while the second is a more simplistic white magick application. Though you could changed pretend that you live... to fix the place up yourself or rouse the family to help. And if you fix it up yourself, you're doing it for yourself... if the family does it, it's for the family.

From: Balanone
Date: Oct. 8, 1997
Message-ID: (not captured)
Responding to: Mood Druid
Responses: (none)


Moon Druid / The Dragon responded (privately? if/when I see similar material on the newsgroup I'll post this response there also -- email often flows faster than newsgroup mail) to my earlier alt.magick post

> >Nor would I call them a black magician, since what they do under the guise of white magic does not match in method nor intent what a black magician does.
> Absolutely--that's often overlooked in the type of discussion that's being had. Intent is nearly everything.

Agreed. And in my view, intent is what determines whether a magician is white or black (or RHP/LHP, or whatever other dichotomous terms you want to use). The actions taken may be identical, and the methods used may be identical, but one's intent reveals the basic philosophy behind taking the action.

> >will stagnate. The true Initiate is one who balances the two activities, study and practice, and uses each to build the other.
> That is probably the best description that I have seen, actually. It also makes me think. I value studying and thinking above applying. Though I feel that applying is necessary, I think that the "stuff" that is applied MUST be well considered, researched, thought-out, diagrammed, and understood. Then re-written, if need be, and reconsidered. When it comes time to apply, it is that final work of research that is put into action. If done right, that piece is research will be a work of art.

Excellent point! The trick to "balance" is that some considerations outweigh others (eg: the intelligence and care with which one decides to takes action, and the intelligence and care involved in the way one takes action, is often "more" beneficial than taking action -- the Adept magician's magic is more powerful, more successful, and results in more stable results, because of that intelligence and care. It's often necessary to include more of one aspect than another to obtain/maintain balance.

The action is necessary, for without taking action knowledge and intelligence is wasted, and power is useless. If we don't take action, we are simply slaves to blind destiny. But the action should be taken only after we apply intelligence and care to the process.

> Adversely, the one who studies and never applies will lose their knack for it, is what I think you're saying. Am I right? If that's what you're saying, then yeah--I definitely agree.

That's part of it, and the waste, uselessness, and slavery I mention in the above paragraph is another part.

> >The accomplished magician (black or white) who works in this realm rebuilds the psychic and social fabric of the world with skillful intent.
> But how much of that is an illusion of reality and how much is real? To the black magician, the creation of the outside world as it should be seems to take precedence over working with it. The white magician works with the community to accomplish their goals. Black magick is a solo operation, really.

Black magic need not be a solo operation, but when undertaken in a community, group, or team, it's always done as a c/g/t of individuals, rather than simply as a c/g/t. To that extent you're correct.

However, I don't see "the creation of the outside world as it should be" to be in conflict with "working with it." The hardest method of creation is to completely obliterate what you have and start over from scratch. It's generally much, much easier to start with what you have, and simply tweak it here and there to make it better, to create a variation of what you have.

Since black magicians from my experience tend to do things the easy way (they try to exert themselves to the extent necessary, and no further), "tweaking" the universe, working with it to make changes, tends to be the method of choice.

> >the creator deems necessary," and some of those black magicians get so wrapped up in their fantasies that they choose to live in that created world and to leave this more mundane world behind. Other black magicians
> [snip]
> >us -- the horrors that inhabit this world with us don't seem to appreciate the changes).
> Right... and that's where black magick is at it's worst--when the > magician lives in a realm so far from reality that they no longer > are of reasonable existance.

We're agreed about that.

> However, you're saying that you rebuild the world brick by brick... but you're rebulding it for yourself. For your sight. And somebody else is rebuilding it for themselves.

Yes. That's a serious difference between the white magic and black magic approaches. And it points to a major difference between the perspectives of these magicians. Most white magicians will look at fifty magicians each doing their own thing independently, and call it a horrible chaos. Most black magicians will look at the same mix of activity and call it a beautiful chaos.

> >counted among the few). The black magician accepts neither dictate, but weighs each individual need, each individual benefit, each individual cost, as carefully as he can, and makes his decision based on that analysis.
> I don't see how the calculation of everything around you correlates to the application of what is necessary, when it's necessary, and who it is necessary for. I, actually, don't see any calculation in that other than how much it's going to cost you for ritual supplies.

Ritual supplies? My expenditures for ritual supplies remains constant regardless of how much of my work is illustrative, or Initiatory, or operative, regardless of whether it's destructive or constructive, regardless of whether it's aimed at refining mechanics or at improving life. The cost and use of ritual supplies is such a minimal consideration it doesn't even warrant thinking about.

The costs which count are the results of the activity. One example would be the opportunity cost of doing this thing and therefore not being able to do something else instead/later (after I chop down a diseased tree so it doesn't threaten its neighbors, I can no longer sit in its shade). Another example would be the destructive cost required for a creation (after I chop down a tree to build a house, I can no longer sit in its shade).

> >need to improve the world around them. The best and easiest way for me to gain a benefit is to work to gain this benefit for all the fellows around me.
> So then it is the solo man working for the community, rather than the community for the community?

No, I wouldn't say it's the solo man working *for* the community; it's the solo man/woman working for himself, often/usually benefiting the community as he does so.

> >Your philosophical question is too reflective for me. If you can explain your question clearly, I will do what I can to answer it clearly.

> > is it better to create the world we desire to live in or live in the world of desire that we create?

> Weigh these two--pretend that you live in the house you wish it were, or go out and rouse your family to help you fix the place up.

> The first would be a more simplistic black magick application, while the second is a more simplistic white magick application. Though you could changed pretend that you live... to fix the place up yourself or rouse the family to help. And if you fix it up yourself, you're doing it for yourself... if the family does it, it's for the family.

Games of "pretend" are for those who can't do.

It's better to take action and reap the benefits, savoring life, than to pretend we took action and have only dreams to savor. Those who can't fix the house may have to take refuge in their dreams, since their only other choice is to be miserable (though remember, many would prefer to be honestly miserable than to live in happy fantasy -- many black magicians work with an atheistic belief, including the fact that they will irrevocably die in a few years or decades, and they prefer this sorrowful fact to the happy fantasy of the Christian afterlife [or equivalents]).

Both capable black magicians and capable white magicians will choose to fix the house. Assuming the rest of the family is capable, they will involve the family. I disagree with your statement that

> if you fix it up yourself, you're doing it for yourself... if the family does it, it's for the family.

If your four-year-old daughter's bicycle breaks, and you fix it yourself, are you doing it for you or for her? If your 14-year-old daughter's bicycle breaks, and you involve her in the repair process, are you now doing it /more/ for her than you did ten years earlier?

If the house needs repair, and you have the training and skill to do it better by yourself than with others' "help," then there are times when you will help them more by doing the job yourself than by involving them. Then there are times when you will help them more by involving them so they gain the experience, even if the job doesn't get done as professionally.

The difference between black and white magician in this analogy might be demonstrated differently: My house needs repair, as does the town meeting hall. Snow is on the way. Both repairs are feasible, and either could be done before snow hits, but it's questionable whether both can be done before the weather gets bad (it might happen, or it might not).

I'm going to fix my house first, and see that my family is protected from the snow, before I divert my energies to fixing the town meeting hall. What would you do in that situation?

Or maybe you can use this situation: Snow is threatening. My son's football came through the front window yesterday. My neighbor's heating system needs a major overhaul. I'm going to cover my broken window with some sturdy plywood /before/ spending a day or two helping my neighbor repair his heating system. What would you do?

From: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 15:39:16 GMT
Message-ID: <343cf2ff.3481476@news.teleport.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
<34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>
<61eup1$6ap$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: "Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com>


On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:35:40 -0500, "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com> wrote:

>So then, in reality, it is the black magician going under the guise of the white magician that you are referring to. For the only true white practitioner is the white hermit. However, unless my memory fails me at such a young age, the Hermit is higher than the Magician in the Hermetic Tarot.

Higher in what way? Is "Z" higher than "A" because it is the twenty-sixth letter of the alphabet instead of the first one, and thus is assigned the number 26 when counted numerically? Doesn't it depend entirely on how you look at it?

>The implications there are too awkward to consider, are they not? It is the one that studies alone that is higher than the one that practices actively.

One may both study and practice alone or with others. To rank one above the other is to impose personal value judgements upon them. While anyone may do this, it becomes problematic to do it for someone else.

>Maybe you didn't consider your words well before you posted them, but you say "create their world" in reference to black magicians. Which leads me to believe that the world created can be as fantastic and unreal as the creator deems necessary. Whereas the white practitioner exists in a world already established, protecting and maintaining what has been laid out by them.

Which world would that be? Merely believing that you have defined the cosmic constants of "reality" does not mean you are any less deluded than those who believe differently. How do you think you should check out what you believe to see if it is erroneous or not?

>>right or wrong with the self. Black magicians work to improve and advance the self first, and to improve and advance the world when we can.
>I am glad you said it before me. However, the blacks (also not used racially) are a selfish lot. Mine and take supercede ours and give.

Luke 6:42 Or how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me cast out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

So, by your standards, Jesus of Nazareth was a black magician.

From: chaos@crystal.palace.net (Matthew R. Sheahan)
Date: 9 Oct 97 22:27:48 GMT
Message-ID: <343d5a64.0@nntp1.nac.net>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
<34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>
<61eup1$6ap$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: (none)


The Dragon (deadguy@interaccess.com) wrote:

> Balanone wrote in message <34392813.df707f65@geocities.com>...
> > right or wrong with the self. Black magicians work to improve and advance the self first, and to improve and advance the world when we can.
> I am glad you said it before me. However, the blacks (also not used racially) are a selfish lot. Mine and take supercede ours and give.

it is impossible to affect the external world in a genuinely positive way without first attending to oneself. people who attempt to do so are, to a man, messiah-complected emotional leeches who wish to compensate for their failures and self-loathing by "rescuing" others, often to the degree that they are happy to damage others in order to have something from which to rescue them.

but remember, all generalizations are false.

chiaroscuro

From: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)
Date: 10 Oct 1997 15:48:34 GMT
Message-ID: <61lioi$2tj$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
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<61b6ma$eh9$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
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Responses: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)


on Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:21:38 -0500, The Dragon (deadguy@interaccess.com) wrote:

> You say that she is prejudiced, but for the sake of being the devil's advocate, I'll say the same for you. You seem to be posting a rationalization for your dabbles in magick that could have extended to the more negative side of things. It's always the ones that would be termed "black" practitioners that say the same as you. Magick is colorless... do unto others.

Yes. I admit to applying rational thought to my magic, however I dont "dabble." As far as who says that magic is colorless and do unto others as they do unto you, I have heard both things pass the lips of "white" practiotioners. Perhaps I am biased against the majority of the magical community because thier first response to any mention of a magician who dares to ask the wrong questions is to tell them not to dare. I thought that TO DARE was even a part of wiccan dogma. I am sure every aspiring neophyte has heard that the work of a magician is "To Know, To Will, To Dare, and To Keep Silent." ( Silence has obviously been blown to Hell, as every co-ed with $10 for a Cunningham paperback can now be seen gayly admitting to everyone in sight that they are a "White Witch," and that they do no harm and so it is okay. I personally feel that they do great harm. They breed. ) No magician should try to limit any other, neither by disseminating propoganda about the horrors and the addiction of unsterilized magic (Really, dears, it makes you sound like xtians), nor by harrassment and warnings of impending doom if the wrong doors are opened. Let each dare to make her own mistakes and so come into true wisdom.

Power has always belonged to those who are intrepid enough to take it. Karma is bullshit. It is how the weak opiate themselves into believing that those who have harmed them will somehow get their due. Those who have harmed them will get thier due. They will either turn out to be weak and rather proletarian members of society, or they will be found to be elite enough to take for themselves what it is that they desire. You see, no one needs to give the Devil his due. He just takes it.

Just my biased opinions.
Nixi

From: Xenome <xenome@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:34:47 -0400
Message-ID: <343E8357.54D0@earthling.net>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
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<Pine.SOL.3.91.971010112521.19724E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Responses: (none)


+>Xenome<+ wrote:

+>White magic is essentially self-denying; Black Magic is essentially self-affirming;
The Dragon totally missed the point and replied:
}}Who is to judge whether your actions are black or white? Only you
And then Rimblesah blathered:
> not only will you judge yourself, but ... others will tend to judge you as well by their standards, and not your own. People like to make up opinions about things.

That's why they're called opinions and not facts. It's amazing how you can beat people over the head with clear, specific definitions and they will hear whatever they already believe about magic. I'm open to changing my definitions - if there's specific information presented clearly to back the argument. Magic is *about* changing your definitions. If you can't do that, you might as well trade in your enochian tablets for a magic eight ball.

+>Xenome<+
the expression of the xenetic code
 

From: Chris Stead <cm_stead@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:28:57 -0100
Message-ID: <34442A69.7B54E6B9@pacbell.net>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<19971005182700.OAA22264@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Responses: Balanone <balfaq@xeper.org>


I think that rather than placing lables on others, you should look at what is really going through your minds. If you are truly good at heart, then you could not perform "Black" magick because you would do it with good intentions, and it would ultimately be a version of the white magick that you practice. Where if you are truly evil then white magick would be equally difficult, since intentions would most likely be bad. Look to your intentions. There you will find the power you need for the magick you seek.

Crimson Dawn

From: Balanone <balfaq@xeper.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:13:26 -0700
Message-ID: <3444C176.24433E92@geocities.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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Responses: (none)


Chris Stead wrote:

> I think that rather than placing lables on others, you should look at what is really going through your minds. If you are truly good at heart, then you could not perform "Black" magick because you would do it with good intentions, and it would ultimately be a version of the white magick that you practice. Where if you are truly evil then white magick would be equally difficult, since intentions would most likely be bad. Look to your intentions. There you will find the power you need for the magick you seek.

Dear Crimson,

The problem with your statement above is that it's view of White Magic vs Black Magic is overly simplistic. There is nothing inherently "good" about white magic, and nothing inherently "bad" about black magic, unless you put such values upon the most basic philosophical goals of life.

A white magician does what he/she does, using what tools he or she does, because of a spiritual and philosophical outlook which proclaims that the world/universe around them is alive, or divine, or welcoming, or at least the god(s) and/or goddess(es) are, and that by working within and for that world/universe/god(dess)(es) and following its/their trends/wills, the magician can a) improve things and/or b) join with the divine.

A black magician does what he/she does, using what tools he or she does, because of a spiritual and philosophical outlook which proclaims that the world/universe around them is basically dead, mundane, and hostile, that most/all god(s) or goddess(es) (if any exist, and many black magicians feel these don't exist) are close to powerless. The black magician sees himself/herself as a force of good, alone in the world, struggling to make this world a better place at least for himself/herself and his/her fellows.

Past these core philosophical or religious differences, the white magician and the black magician may have very similar valuations about "good" and "bad", and their actions and methods may be exceedingly similar, and their results may be exceedingly similar.

Balanone
   PP

From: "Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: 1997/10/10
Message-ID: <61o78t$nhv$2@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <19971005064200.CAA16479@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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<<343cf2ff.3481476@news.teleport.com>
Responses: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)


As a sidenote, before we begin, I'd like to say that I find it ironic to be making this post. I was just thinking of the fact that pagans and occultists seem to think they know more about the Bible than Christians. Regardless, whether you are a believer or not, there are many things that you can learn from the Bible. The first five books of the Old Testament are the most useful to modern occultists, mind you. But there are many moral messages in there, a lot of philosophy, and some serious consideration that should be given to each reading.

Plus, if you know your Bible, you are stronger in your fight against a) the Christians and b) everybody who isn't a Christian that likes to pull verses from the Bible and use them against you.

Tom Schuler wrote in message <343cf2ff.3481476@news.teleport.com>...

: I am glad you said it before me. However, the blacks (also not used racially) are a selfish lot. Mine and take supercede ours and give.
>Luke 6:42 Or how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me cast out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

>So, by your standards, Jesus of Nazareth was a black magician.

Actually, Tommy, let's evaluate that question before we answer it, shall we?

The New International Version (including everything from these past few years, translated so that everyone can understand) reads...

"How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

But perhaps more insight can be given by looking one verse earlier. See, the Bible is to be interpreted. Like anything that we are interpreting, we must put it in context.

Luke 6:41 "'Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your borther's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?'" Then, the aforementioned verse, Luke, 6:42.

And, oddly enough, this all falls under the heading of Judging Others. Luke, 6:37, "'Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.'"

So the cop-out answer is that I will not judge Jesus Christ. But that is not the answer that I give.

For starters, the Bible passage that you chose has nothing to do with what you are trying to prove. You only weaken your argument. The purpose of that verse is to show Jesus discussing the wrongs of hypocracy. It is also showing Jesus's effectiveness as a teacher--helping others to help themselves.

No... if Jesus were a black magician, he probably would have chuckled at the person with the log in his eye trying to flick the sawdust out of his brother's eye. Then, he would have told them to hold still while he pulled the log out and then pulled the sawdust out. Why? Because people would become dependent on him. Assuming that he would build a following of dependents, he could have tought them what he wanted to teach them. And then, when Judas came for Jesus, his followers would have beaten Judas senseless... because it's of more value to be alive than it is to be dead. Peter never would have disowned Jesus, Pilate never would have killed him, the crucifix would simply be a method of torture to kill, right up there with stoning.

Instead, Jesus was a white magician... pure and true, like no other. He helped the brothers for life by making them think before they did something so obviously dumb as to have the one with the log in his eye checking his brother's eye for the speck. What if the brothers came, and one of them had the speck in the eye, but the other had nothing? Jesus probably would have given the brother a few pointers on checking the eye for dust. If it scratched his cornea, Jesus might have admitted him for optical surgery, depending on how backed up the healing schedule was for that day. =)

No, by my standards and by your quotation, Jesus of Nazareth was not a black magician.

That concludes today's sermon. Manuscripts are available by hitting <Ctrl>+P. Tapes are available if you turn your answering machine to record and start your text reading software.

BTW - Luke is a poor book to argue with, though it is the most descriptive. Problem is, it's one big story. The lessons are real... the words often bullshit.

From: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)
Date: 1997/10/12
Message-ID: <61rbs8$lvk$2@news1.teleport.com>
References: <61o78t$nhv$2@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: "Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com>


In article <61o78t$nhv$2@nntp3.interaccess.com>, "Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com> wrote:

>Tom Schuler wrote in message <343cf2ff.3481476@news.teleport.com>...
>: I am glad you said it before me. However, the blacks (also not used racially) are a selfish lot. Mine and take supercede ours and give.
>>Luke 6:42 Or how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me cast out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

>>So, by your standards, Jesus of Nazareth was a black magician.

>Actually, Tommy, let's evaluate that question before we answer it, shall we?
"Tommy"? Are you trying to insinuate that I am a child, or am acting childishly in presenting this argument? Does playing this sort of name-game help your rational position or does it make you look petulant and condescending?

Nor did I ask a "question". I made a statement.

>But perhaps more insight can be given by looking one verse earlier. See, the Bible is to be interpreted. Like anything that we are interpreting, we must put it in context.

>Luke 6:41 "'Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your borther's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?'" Then, the aforementioned verse, Luke, 6:42.

>And, oddly enough, this all falls under the heading of Judging Others.

Yes, it does. It advises that one should put one's own house in order before criticizing others. Referring back to the issue that my comments were based upon, you had argued that a "black magician" was someone who preferred perfecting self before presuming to offer service to others. This verse from Luke is clear evidence that your generalization about "black magicians" is far too simplistic.
>For starters, the Bible passage that you chose has nothing to do with what you are trying to prove.
I say it does. You say it doesn't. Now what?
>The purpose of that verse is to show Jesus discussing the wrongs of hypocracy. It is also showing Jesus's effectiveness as a teacher--helping others to help themselves.
I say it isn't. You say it is. Now what?

Do you see the problem here? You can't declare your interpretation superior unless you have some evidence that mine is not correct. You do not have any such evidence. Your opinions and value judgements about "black magick" are in a similar bind. They are your opinions based upon faith and your arbitrarily selected morals.

>Instead, Jesus was a white magician... pure and true, like no other.
I think he was a minor religious fanatic whose legend has been embellished by several hundred years of story-telling. Now what?

From: "Moon Druid" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: 1997/10/12
Message-ID: <61ucn2$tu$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <61rbs8$lvk$2@news1.teleport.com>
Responses: (none)


Tom Schuler wrote in message <61rbs8$lvk$2@news1.teleport.com>...

>"Tommy"? Are you trying to insinuate that I am a child, or am acting childishly in presenting this argument? Does playing this sort of name-game help your rational position or does it make you look petulant and condescending?
Negative, Mr. Schuler (<--- is that more to your liking?). I simply used Tommy as a nickname, to act more conversational. I have a friend whose name is Thomas that goes by either Tom or Tommy, with no preference or agitation.
>Nor did I ask a "question". I made a statement.
Then I misinterpreted you. Now what?
>perfecting self before presuming to offer service to others. This verse from Luke is clear evidence that your generalization about "black magicians" is far too simplistic.
Actualy, Tom, my oversimplification was because--if you recall--this whole discussion started with some people who did not really understand black magick (nor basic magickal philosophy, for that matter!), but wanted to learn about it.

In the beginning, I found it very helpful to hear the oversimplifications, or stereotypes, if you will. Especially in the midst of genuine debate on the topic where you can draw your own conclusions and even interject.

The oversimplifications were not for you--you don't need them. I know that for a fact.

>a similar bind. They are your opinions based upon faith and your arbitrarily selected morals.
What are my arbitrarily selected morals, Tom? Am I a Christian? Is that what I am? Judging by my post, would you label me a devout Christian who goes to Church every Sunday and is here in alt.magick to bring out the Bible and bash you Pagans and Occultists for your wrongs?

Ahhhhh-hahahahaha!!! Just thinking of that makes me laugh.

>I say it does. You say it doesn't. Now what? I say it isn't. You say it is. Now what?
I say tomato, you say tomahto.
I say potato, you say potahto.
Tomato! Tomahto! Potato! Potahto!
Let's blow the whole thing off.

From: Rimblesah <d-weiss@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: 1997/10/09
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971009204035.2838J-100000@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>
Responses: (none)


<Rimblesah chuckles....> On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Balanone wrote:

> Shane C. Hage wrote:
> > As a WHITE practitioner with over 10 years experience, ...
> Shane, as a WHITE practitioner with over 10 years experience, you know distressingly little about black magic.

> As a BLACK magician for the past 20 years, let me correct a few of your errors.

> Black magic does not necessarily cause discord, negative emotions, or

<snip>

> I have nothing against the white hermit, who pursues his craft and attempts to become harmonious, loving, and balanced within, and to be harmonious with the universe, balanced with it. It's the white light meddlers who can't handle the dark side of the universe and who wage war against the dark side of the universe, or more accurately who wage war against everything they don't like about the universe and everyone they don't like in the universe who cause the problems.

It is amazing... white practicioner points to black practicioner and shouts, "It's all their fault--they cause problems". Whereupon the blacky points at the whitey and shouts, "It's all their fault--they cause problems".

<Rimblesah points a finger at each, and announces that conflict exists, always has existed, and always will exist. As will finger-pointing.>

;)

I don't think I'd like to live in a world where one or the other had won out. I neither try to snuff out the less-than-socially-acceptable urges I feel, nor do I try to snuff out my conscience. In a way, all the black/white strife is reflected inside me. And just as the world is better for it, so am I. Just as I would not change the world, neither will I try to change myself. I seek internal harmony, but harmony does not involve killing part of who I am--it lies in pursuing a certain clarity where a harmonious balance between my urges and my conscious can be attained. I haven't gotten there yet but I know I've gotten closer.

In a way I'm part wiccan (to an extent I live by "that you harm none, do what thy will") and in a way I'm part satanist (to an extent I am true to the beast of desire that lies within). (If I'm right about the bottom line ethical stance these two systems endorse, anyway.) I have both within me.

Or perhaps, since I'm being absolutely true to myself, all of myself, I am the epitome of the satanic ethic?

Sorry for the insightful/philosophical drivel. I'll leave you to your fingerpointings now.

-Rimblesah
Why be normal?

From: Rimblesah <d-weiss@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: 1997/10/09
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971009201902.2838I-100000@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <61b6ma$eh9$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Responses: (none)


On 6 Oct 1997, Nicole M Long wrote:

> on Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:03:24 -0400, Shane C. Hage (shage@email.msn.com) wrote:
> > Unbelievable...Scarlet1c0...you said in a previous post that you have been devoted to the White Arts for most of your life...why now do you seek to destroy yourself? There is nothing that black magick can do that White can not also do.
(snipping of lots of cosmological opinions that didn't seem to have support, until...)
> If I had brought about the death of an enemy, it would only be because it had been deserved. Magic doesn't permit you to make those kinds of mistakes. If your subject doesn't deserve the action you take against them, it won't work. Period.
It must be very comforting to have such an ironclad faith in ultimate justice. I certainly hope for your sake you're right and I'm wrong about whether or not your faith is well-placed....
> No flame war. Just my opinion.
I agree; I am not flaming you, merely pointing out (with admitted sarcasm--maybe that does qualify as a flame to some) that you are placing faith in a cosmological law that I have never seen any evidence of existing. Faith, imho, is a dangerous thing.

How can you possibly know, given your finite knowledge, whether or not, bottom line, if someone deserves something or not? You can't possibly know everything that would be required to make a certain judgement.

It is my opinion that karma doesn't protect; it is a fact that nobody knows everything there is to know about any given topic. Including Justice.

-Rimblesah
Why be normal?

From: "The Dragon" <deadguy@interaccess.com>
Date: 1997/10/07
Message-ID: <61eil7$3cl$5@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <OCGO6mm08GA.264@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Responses: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)


Shane C. Hage wrote in message ...

> Unbelievable...Scarlet1c0...you said in a previous post that you have been devoted to the White Arts for most of your life...why now do you seek to destroy yourself
Probably because she doesn't actually know what she's talking about. Regardless, you raise some great points, Shane...
>you do it yet, each person has decisions to make. All that I recommend is that you post your answers as to WHY you want to pursue black magick so that myself and others have to opportunity to give our opinions. Of course, I
Why? Black magick is seductive and enticing. It's easy... it's quick... it's power. Once you control that power, and keep going for more of it, you know true power.

In reality, you are being consumed by it. Black magick requires a lot... it's like a cocaine addiction. You need to keep giving the dealer more money to pay for more cocaine. And you need more coke next time, so you give more money. You don't have the money, so you start stealing from others around you, or doing other things so you do have that money so you can get more coke. And then you either go through that long process of rehab which may not separate you from your addiction... or you'll die.

From: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)
Date: 1997/10/10
Message-ID: <61lhal$1tn$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <61eil7$3cl$5@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: kaos@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ()


on Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:18:05 -0500, The Dragon (deadguy@interaccess.com) wrote:

> >devoted to the White Arts for most of your life...why now do you seek to destroy yourself
> Probably because she doesn't actually know what she's talking about. Regardless, you raise some great points, Shane...
Notation made. The Dragon accuses someone of not knowing what she is talking about.
> Why? Black magick is seductive and enticing. It's easy... it's quick... it's power. Once you control that power, and keep going for more of it, you know true power. In reality, you are being consumed by it. Black magick requires a lot... it's like a cocaine addiction. You need to keep giving the dealer more money to pay for more cocaine. And you need more coke next time, so you give more money. You don't have the money, so you start stealing from others around you, or doing other things so you do have that money so you can get more coke. And then you either go through that long process of rehab which may not separate you from your addiction... or you'll die.
Now the Dragon shows that he has no idea of what he is talking about. Didn't that bible verse say Judge not that ye be not judged? Judgement tends to visit itself in kind.

So the Dragon knows nothing about "black" magic. He does seem to know about cocaine addiction. It would take much crack smoking and watching of bad Hollywood renditions of "voodoo" to come up with this bullshit.

Nixi
 

From: kaos@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ()
Date: 1997/10/12
Message-ID: <61pir9$c02$5@news.sas.ab.ca>
References: <61lhal$1tn$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Responses: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)


Nicole M Long (marea@news.utk.edu) wrote:

: Now the Dragon shows that he has no idea of what he is talking about. Didn't that bible verse say Judge not that ye be not judged? Judgement tends to visit itself in kind.
Perhaps he doesn't know as much about black magick as he thought. However, that doesn't justify this:
: He does seem to know about cocaine addiction. It would take much crack smoking and watching of bad Hollywood renditions of "voodoo" to come up with this bullshit.
This is pure speculation, with little (if any) evidence to back it up. It also serves no purpose, except perhaps to ease a wounded ego.

If you cannot defend your position without resort to direct insult, then all you do is weaken it.

--
My paranoia is the natural result of my megalomania.
When your destiny is as great as mine,
someone's bound to be out to get you...
In chaos all things are possible.

From: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)
Date: 1997/10/12
Message-ID: <61qg5r$m4a$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <61pir9$c02$5@news.sas.ab.ca>
Responses: (none)


on 12 Oct 1997 04:14:33 GMT, kaos@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:

SNIP!

> However, that doesn't justify this:
> : He does seem to know about cocaine addiction. It would take much crack smoking and watching of bad Hollywood renditions of "voodoo" to come up with this bullshit.
> This is pure speculation, with little (if any) evidence to back it up. It also serves no purpose, except perhaps to ease a wounded ego.

> If you cannot defend your position without resort to direct insult, then all you do is weaken it.

I heartily agree that if you cannot defend your position with out attacking your detractors, you are pathetic. I also agree that I did commit a logical fallacy by doing this. However, it does not follow that I CANNOT back my position up with valid arguments, nor does it of necessity mean that my ego was bruised, and that this attack on my opponents character was committed to soothe any such afflictions. In fact, I chose use the tactic that I did because it amused me. I felt that he had attempted to add to the practice of black magic a connotation of criminality, deviance, and degeneracy by linking it with cocaine addiction. I found this to be too vapid to answer with any degree of seriousness.

I suppose a more respectable refute would have addressed points that he had made earlier in the paragraph about how easy it was to practice black magic. He made it sound as though all one had to do was consign oneself to the commiting of "evil" acts, and suddenly one would be showered with incredible powers, without any intellect, work, or discipline. This is simply not true. It has taken me much study and thought to get to the place where I am. Nothing was handed to me. Certainly I put more effort into my magic than the average white witch who runs out to the bookstore to purchase a cheap Llewellen paperback on candle-magic and then rushes home to read and follow instructions step by step. The very nature of my magic requires that I put much more effort into designing my own ritual, or deciding if I even need one. So his statement about how black magicians are sucked in by promises of great power through little work is bullshit. However, it is far more descriptive of the addiction process. No effort is required to get a drug. Only money and slight knowledge of where they may be purchased. Study and thought are not necessary to obtain a drug, (Though if the addict had exercised these activities in the first place, they might not be an addict.) and one is promised an incredibly wonderful experience in exchange for nothing but money and health. So it seems that his argument is invalid at its core, and should be disregarded.

Better? Why did I not answer him thus in the first place. I don't generally waste that much time trying to debate with someone who doesn't understand the basic principles of logic, and who would most likely fail to understand any words that I might use of 3 or more syllables. Why did I answer you? Not to assuage any damage that you might have done to my ego, I assure you. I felt that since you approached me as an intelligent opponent, you deserved an intelligent response.

Nixi

"Sometimes, the only valid logical argument is 'FUCK YOU'!"
-Abbie Hoffman

From: Adeline Chung <a_chung@infoflash.ci>
Date: 1997/10/11
Message-ID: <344054E7.5F54@infoflash.ci>
References: (not recorded)
Responses: kaos@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ()
duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)
David <d-weiss@students.uiuc.edu>


Anything that deals with the unprincipled matter of this Cosmic Physical plain is technically a Black magician.

Sorry to break some folks righteous bubbles about this issue.

The masters are forsaking this path, but being themselves a part of the Cosmic Physical, must reach beyond Atma to start to realize this.

It takes the 9th initiation to turn ones back on Cosmic Evil, {Black Magic} forever.

From: kaos@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca ()
Date: 1997/10/13
Message-ID: <61sgo6$9gs$3@news.sas.ab.ca>
References: <344054E7.5F54@infoflash.ci>
Responses: (none)


Adeline Chung (a_chung@infoflash.ci) wrote:

: Anything that deals with the unprincipled matter of this Cosmic Physical plain is technically a Black magician.

: Sorry to break some folks righteous bubbles about this issue.

What is black, but a color?
You define "black magic" as what you just listed. What makes your definition universal? Why should it apply to other systems?

--
My paranoia is the natural result of my megalomania.
When your destiny is as great as mine,
someone's bound to be out to get you...
In chaos all things are possible.

From: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)
Date: 1997/10/13
Message-ID: <34423b64.5027175@news.teleport.com>
References: <344054E7.5F54@infoflash.ci>
Responses: (none)


On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:41:15 -0700, Adeline Chung <a_chung@infoflash.ci> wrote:

>Anything that deals with the unprincipled matter of this Cosmic Physical >plain is technically a Black magician.

>Sorry to break some folks righteous bubbles about this issue.

>The masters are forsaking this path, but being themselves a part of the Cosmic Physical, must reach beyond Atma to start to realize this.

>It takes the 9th initiation to turn ones back on Cosmic Evil, {Black Magic} forever.

You are using words for which you are not providing clear meanings. There are no standard definitions for such things as "unprincipled matter", "Cosmic Physical plane", "Cosmic evil", and "9th initiation". If you wish to be understood and to have some intelligent discourse, you will need to use more commonly understood terms or define your specialized terms more precisely.

From: David <d-weiss@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: 1997/10/13
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971013144026.15777D-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <344054E7.5F54@infoflash.ci>
Responses: (none)


On Sat, 11 Oct 1997, Adeline Chung wrote:

> Anything that deals with the unprincipled matter of this Cosmic Physical > plain is technically a Black magician.

> Sorry to break some folks righteous bubbles about this issue.

Yoish!

People! It's a definition, not an absolute. You'll never come to agreement because: you've chosen to adopt different definitions to the same words. There is no intrinsic right or wrong in what meanings get attached to what symbols. And every word ever invented is merely an arbitrary symbol, meant to stand for something else.

-Rimblesah
Why be normal?

From: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)
Date: 1997/10/11
Message-ID: <61o4st$hr0$1@news1.teleport.com>
References: <61lioi$2tj$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Responses: (none)


In article <61lioi$2tj$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long) wrote:

>Perhaps I am biased against the majority of the magical community because thier first response to any mention of a magician who dares to ask the wrong questions is to tell them not to dare.
It is incumbent upon every student of magick to question everything. To forbid questioning is an element of fanatical religion, not magick.
>I am sure every aspiring neophyte has heard that the work of a magician is "To Know, To Will, To Dare, and To Keep Silent." ( Silence has obviously been blown to Hell, as every co-ed with $10 for a Cunningham paperback can now be seen gayly admitting to everyone in sight that they are a "White Witch," and that they do no harm and so it is okay.
Like a lot of the lore of magick, this little aphorism has depth of meaning beyond its strict diction. Silence is not only secrecy and the stuff written in Cunningham's book were never actually secrets anyway.
>Power has always belonged to those who are intrepid enough to take it.
And foolish enough to believe that it matters.

From: Balanone <balfaq@xeper.org>
Date: 1997/10/07
Message-ID: <343AFD5B.5C84E77@geocities.com>
References: 61eup1$6ap$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: (none)


The Dragon wrote (responding to my earlier post):

> >Why? Because the white magician is often out to save the world, to *force* harmony, love, and balance to the universe, to force *their* ideas of harmony, love, and balance onto the universe. It just doesn't work.
> So then, in reality, it is the black magician going under the guise of the white magician that you are referring to. For the only true white practitioner is the white hermit. However, unless my memory fails me at such a young age, the Hermit is higher than the Magician in the Hermetic Tarot.
To answer your last statement first, the Major Arcana can be seen, used, and traveled in a multitude of ways, in a multitude of directions. To see any one of them as necessarily "higher" or "lower" than another is to miss much of the meaning and complexity within the Tarot. In some practices and meanings, the Hermit is "higher" (more advanced) than the Magician. In other practices and meanings, the Magician is "higher" (more pure) than the Hermit. In yet other practices and meanings "higher" simply does not apply.

As for "the only true white practitioner," rather I'd say that the only truly advanced white magicians are in or have gone through the "white hermit" stage. Many others have not yet reached that stage (and many of them won't). Even though their perceptions and wisdom may be less complete than the hermit's, I hesitate to call them a false white magician -- they want to be a white magician, and they think they're being a white magician, and they are accepted by others who claim to be white magicians.

Nor would I call them a black magician, since what they do under the guise of white magic does not match in method nor intent what a black magician does.

> The implications there are too awkward to consider, are they not? It is the one that studies alone that is higher than the one that practices actively.
Implications are awkward to consider only to those who find such studies troubling. IMO, the one that studies only (I believe that's what you meant, rather than the person who studies solo) is not higher than one who practices; study is fine, but it can and often does lead to one becoming an "armchair magician," who knows what's supposed to work, but who can't do anything. On the other hand, the magician who practices magic without seriously studying to advance his knowledge and abilities will stagnate. The true Initiate is one who balances the two activities, study and practice, and uses each to build the other.
> >Black magic involves finding and breaking the barriers to individuality and independent power that abound in today's universe. The barriers that white magicians erect to protect and maintain their world are the barriers which the black magicians tear down in order to create their world.
> Maybe you didn't consider your words well before you posted them, but you say "create their world" in reference to black magicians. Which leads me to believe that the world created can be as fantastic and unreal as the creator deems necessary. Whereas the white practitioner exists in a world already established, protecting and maintaining what has been laid out by them.
And then again maybe I did consider my words well before posting them. Each of us creates a world around us through our perceptions (is that cloudy morning quiet and peaceful? brooding and threatening? deep and inspiring?) and through our actions (after meeting you at the grocery store, do people smile and feel better, or are they angry at one more selfish SOB?). The accomplished magician (black or white) who works in this realm rebuilds the psychic and social fabric of the world with skillful intent.

Yes, some black magicians can create a world "as fantastic and unreal as the creator deems necessary," and some of those black magicians get so wrapped up in their fantasies that they choose to live in that created world and to leave this more mundane world behind. Other black magicians work on a more meaningful scale, rebuilding this world of horrors brick by brick, into something better for all of us (well, better for most of us -- the horrors that inhabit this world with us don't seem to appreciate the changes).

> >Black magic involves finding those things which need to be done and doing them, regardless of the moment's popular conception of whether these things are good or bad
> And, hence, black magick is an art of emotion, and not of thought. However, I would not argue that the opposite is true for the whites (and I must stress that this term is not used in racial context) of the world.
I don't see how you determine from my statement that black magic is an art of emotion. Rather, black magic is an art based on careful, rational, and intelligent analysis of need and value. Vulcans proclaim that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Many intelligent Earthmen proclaim that the needs of the few are as important as the needs of the many (mostly because they often find themselves counted among the few). The black magician accepts neither dictate, but weighs each individual need, each individual benefit, each individual cost, as carefully as he can, and makes his decision based on that analysis.
> >right or wrong with the self. Black magicians work to improve and advance the self first, and to improve and advance the world when we can.
> I am glad you said it before me. However, the blacks (also not used racially) are a selfish lot. Mine and take supercede ours and give.
At a superficial level you are completely correct. However, black magicians see that in order to optimize their selfish situation, they need to improve the world around them. The best and easiest way for me to gain a benefit is to work to gain this benefit for all the fellows around me.
> We must ask this philosophical question--is it better to create the world we desire to live in or live in the world of desire that we create?
Your philosophical question is too reflective for me. If you can explain your question clearly, I will do what I can to answer it clearly.

Balanone
   PP

From: "Jeff Marshall" <magan93@flash.net>
Date: 1997/10/08
Message-ID: <61fnt8$p0$1@excalibur.flash.net>
References: 61eup1$6ap$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: (none)


Greetings,

The Dragon wrote in message <61eimv$3cl$8@nntp3.interaccess.com>...

>So then, in reality, it is the black magician going under the guise of the white magician that you are referring to. For the only true white practitioner is the white hermit. However, unless my memory fails me at such a young age, the Hermit is higher than the Magician in the Hermetic Tarot.

>The implications there are too awkward to consider, are they not? It is the one that studies alone that is higher than the one that practices actively.

The Hermit is Yod, key 9 and the Magician is Beth, key 1. I'm not sure what you mean by "higher" though. Because 9>1? On most Tree of Life assignments Beth/Magician is "higher" up the Tree than Yod/Hermit. But I think "higher" and "lower" is a real misnomer anyway.

AOI
Jeff

From: marea@news.utk.edu (Nicole M Long)
Date: 1997/10/10
Message-ID: <61lk3q$3na$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: 61eup1$6ap$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
Responses: Rimblesah <d-weiss@students.uiuc.edu>


on Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:35:40 -0500, The Dragon (deadguy@interaccess.com) wrote:

> Balanone wrote in message <34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>...
> >Black magic involves finding and breaking the barriers to individuality and independent power that abound in today's universe. The barriers that white magicians erect to protect and maintain their world are the barriers which the black magicians tear down in order to create their world.
> Maybe you didn't consider your words well before you posted them, but you say "create their world" in reference to black magicians. Which leads me to believe that the world created can be as fantastic and unreal as the creator deems necessary. Whereas the white practitioner exists in a world already established, protecting and maintaining what has been laid out by them.
A logical fallacy. Now who shows predjudice? I create my world. I wanted a better position than the one I had. I created the situation that fostered that career becoming mine through both mundane and magical means. I hated someone in my life, I worked to remove them through both mundane and esp. magical means. Isn't that creating my world? White magicians don't do this you say? Are you admitting impotence, then? Everyone creates thier life with every step they take. Perhaps you didn't consider your words well before you posted them.

Also, you say that white practitioners work is "protecting and maintaining what has been laid out by them." If they laid it out, didn't they create it? Oooops. Gotta watch your own semantics before you attack someone elses.

> >Black magic involves finding those things which need to be done and doing them, regardless of the moment's popular conception of whether these things are good or bad
> And, hence, black magick is an art of emotion, and not of thought. However, I would not argue that the opposite is true for the whites (and I must stress that this term is not used in racial context) of the world.
I'm sorry. I seem to have missed where Balanone said anything of the sort. Could you wave the crack smoke away from your screen and check again? Emotion and intellect are of equal importance in magic of any sort. One must be rational as to what is expected and what will be the outcome of any magic performed, else one might end up doing other than what was intended. However, there is NO magic without emotion. If you are not passionate about what you want, you will not recieve it. Again this is mundane and magical. If one is not straining with desire for a thing, then the one who is will beat them to the prize.

(snip bullshit to tiresome to refute.)

Nixi

From: Rimblesah <d-weiss@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: 1997/10/10
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971010122734.19724I-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <61lk3q$3na$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Responses: (none)


On 10 Oct 1997, Nicole M Long wrote:

> on Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:35:40 -0500, The Dragon (deadguy@interaccess.com) wrote:
> > Balanone wrote in message <34392813.DF707F65@geocities.com>...
> I'm sorry. I seem to have missed where Balanone said anything of the sort. Could you wave the crack smoke away from your screen and check again?
These little content-empty belittlings are really tiresome. It's a pity an otherwise intelligent response has to keep on having these pointless pieces of drivel.
> Emotion and intellect are of equal importance in magic of any sort. One must be rational as to what is expected and what will be the outcome of any magic performed, else one might end up doing other than what was intended. However, there is NO magic without emotion.
I disagree. I've clearly gotten things that I didn't feel passionately about. I've even gotten things I really didn't especially want. There is no magic without will--that I'll agree to. I willed the changes to happen even though I didn't especially want them.

Emotions are a form of energy, and hence can be utilized for bringing about change. Consequently, the more something is desired (if the magic has a tendency to tap the emotional energy to effect change), the more likely change will be effected. But there are other types of energy out there.

This is how I see things. Take it for what it's worth.

> If you are not passionate about what you want, you will not recieve it. Again this is mundane and magical. If one is not straining with desire for a thing, then the one who is will beat them to the prize.
This is simplistic. I've seen people, in the workplace for example, end up getting promotions that they didn't especially want, while others who dearly lusted for the promotion were passed by. Another example is martial arts--I've sparred with people who were beginners and dearly wanted to score a hit on me, whereas I was very casual about scoring my hits on them. My blocks were lazy and my attacks slow and unfocused due to a near apathy I had about my success. Yet, due to the huge skill differential, I invariably win in those situations.

I will go even farther and say that there have been occasions where my strong desire for something directly inhibited attaining my goal. Such is admittedly rare, but it's happened. For instance, I was once in love with someone, and I lusted mightily for them. They were uncomfortable with being an object of such intense desire, and so refused my advances. In time I got used to thinking of her as just a friend, and mostly got over my lust for her. It was then that she was comfortable enough with the relationship to initiate sexual activity with me.

Just some food for thought. The world I live in is an incredibly complex place, and there are few simple laws to dictate what goes on.

-Rimblesah
Why be normal, when you can toss Ockam's Razor (sp???) out the window?

Finally, Shanathan H. Hanson posted the basic question again, and Tom Schuler responded with the most important advice:

From: duo@teleport.com (Tom Schuler)
Date: 1997/10/10
Message-ID: <343e6be8.8120057@news.teleport.com>

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 05:10:52 -0400, "SHANATHAN H. HANSON" <shhanson@hamlet.uncg.edu> wrote:
>Does anyone know of a "REAL" magick teacher??? If you do, then please let me know of them and how to contact them. Because I would really like to learn magick!

The best teacher of magick you could ever hope for lurks just behind your forehead. Gather your own information, observe others in action, discuss the subject with anyone willing to do so, try a few things, and form your own conclusions. Self-proclaimed magick teachers should be viewed with justifiable suspicion.

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